Bonus - Austin Interview

AI generated podcast transcript:

Okay, here we go. Welcome back to the Stimpak podcast, 43 days to freedom series. We have a special bonus episode happening right now. Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce to you one of my heroes, Austin Holmes. Austin, welcome to the program.

Austin (00:28)

Great to be here, Jeff. Great to see you. Honored to be here and get to partake, man.

Thanks, thanks. Well, let me do a quick and insufficient introduction to Austin and then we'll kind of dig in. So those of you who've been listening to the podcast may have heard that name. I know there's a lot of names that get thrown around on the podcast. So I'll just be clear about who Austin is. So in the early days of my kidnapping, my wife was doing what she could through our network, trying to figure out who was.

qualified in this kind of thing to lead a kidnapping negotiation and extraction somehow and figure out if that skill set even existed. And the higher you went in the network, the more consistent the refrain was, you got to talk to this guy, Austin Holmes He's got the skill set that you're looking for, the integrity that you're looking for.

And believe it or not, he does it for free. And that's obviously a remarkable set of converging attributes to find in one person. And so we were thrilled to have been introduced to Austin. It took a couple of days for everyone to believe the hype on Austin, but we found it to be nothing but true. And so I was the benefactor of his continued dedication for six weeks.

And when I say dedication, I mean, that's a 24 hour a day availability. Many of the hours of those days are working on getting me set free. That's putting his other many priorities, other worthy endeavors aside, his family being without him for many days, many hours, late nights, during dinner, during vacations, family reunions, all that stuff. It was.

and a mint sacrifice. So Austin, I've said thanks many times, I'll continue to do so. Austin is one of my freedom fighters on my lifelong freedom fighters team. I'm grateful to have you and all that you've done for me. Thanks for being here today.

Austin (02:40)

So honored to get to be Jeff. Man, just, you kind of, talking about getting to know somebody where you feel like you know them really well, but yeah, it's the time together, I think, you and I. And just, you know, just thankful that we got to be a part of the story and getting to watch Mary and Erin grow through all that was pretty remarkable. There's a little bit of a lag, so forgive me if I miss anything, but.

Jeff Frazier (02:58)

That's kind of you.

No, thank you. Austin has been working in Haiti for years, not just on weird things like getting me out of trouble, but also assisting many large NGOs in trying to lift Haiti.

Austin (03:07)

Yeah, keep going, man. You're great.

Jeff Frazier (03:23)

lots of different ways. Austin, do you want to speak a little bit about that?

Austin (03:26)

Yeah, I was introduced to Haiti through some buddies who worked out, who moved down there in 2009. And we probably have a pretty typical story of doing about everything wrong you can't do wrong. And so we paid some dumb tax and then we did a lot of work after the earthquake in January 2010. That's when I got introduced to Mission Hope and became very close with the team there.

thought, man, this is what we'd want to be in 20 years. And so just started volunteering and serving there. And that characterizes most of the last, Cali, 14, 15 years of Haiti. And I think there are some groups that really are seeking to get it right. And they're one of them of just working with, by and through Haitians who love their country. The underappreciated asset and people are

The Haitians who are sacrificing their lives, their livelihood, their families at great personal cost to continue serving today. Many of whom were a part of, I'm not talking about Mission to Hope here, but just other great people who were part of your recovery and supporting it, who their names are never going to be mentioned. But we wouldn't have you here today without them. And so, yeah.

With Mission Hope, I served there and led all their operations in country for a number of years before we moved back to Florida. So, I can't say enough good things about them and other groups like them. And I felt privileged to get to serve in Haiti. We just love it. It's part of us.

Jeff Frazier (05:00)

And I'm grateful that you did. so, but let's dig into it. Do you mind maybe telling me, I don't know the, this part of the story, your first kind of interaction with my crew and, and, maybe then with Mary also, and kind of how you, you came in and on the team, your first kind of interaction with my situation and you're welcome to name check who you want and avoid who you like, you'd like to avoid naming it's on you.

Austin (05:26)

Yeah. So the short of it was, we were on a family trip out in California and I get a call from some mutual friends in the special operations community who, somewhere between loving, respecting and hating me enough, you know, we have an inside joke about, thank you so much for that introduction. But remember that vividly and getting tied in with Mary and Aaron and Doug and kind of that became the team.

pretty quickly. So yeah, that's how I got tied in. I'll never forget it.

Jeff Frazier (05:58)

Awesome. So as a reminder, audience, Doug is my neighbor and friend and Aaron is my brother -in -law. So Mary's a big brother and the team that is kind of the core team,

Austin (06:11)

Definitely, definitely. We would pull Billy in periodically if there was something I thought they needed to hear directly from him. But yeah, and Doug too. Mary and Aaron and I were talking daily. And you know, you're just trying to figure it out, right? And just work in the product.

Jeff Frazier (06:27)

You mind telling me a little bit about maybe your first week or so, like what was maybe your overriding memories there? You know, my guess is you were still just, just getting started, probably doing a lot of fact finding, probably trying to see if the team was even good at work.

Austin (06:45)

Definitely. You know, when I came in,

It was really closer to, I think, day five to day seven and somewhere in there. So it wasn't from the beginning. And so we were honestly, I was trying to get caught up on who said what, what commitments were made, who were the actors, who could we trust, who could you not? You know, you're really trying to assess, you know, who's who, right? And who can, yeah, everything you're taking with,

Observations always have a degree of error and trust is a highly prized item. So you're trying to figure out what motivates which people to. So it took some time to get our legs underneath us. And then I quickly started realizing that we had a problem. His name was Jeff Frazier I'm going, dang it, I got to deal with this guy. And so I spent most of my time going.

And I understand exactly what he's doing. I think I'd be doing the same thing and yet have to figure out how to totally discredit this guy. And so, you know, I put myself or our team, you know, it's almost like we had to assume this adversarial position to you, which we thought was in your interest. So it's like we're fighting Jeff for Jeff was kind of, I think our language at some point, you know, and.

Jeff Frazier (08:02)

courts.

Good.

Austin (08:12)

It's like this game, right? You're firewalled from each other. So, there's things listening to the podcast where you don't know who's on the other end of that call. Sometimes you make wrong assumptions. Or you look back and you go, man, I can't tell you how many times I've looked back on this. I was looking over the AR that we did immediately after. Because it's kind of helpful to look at it again from in light of the podcast and your thoughts. And there's certainly...

many things that we did wrong, could have done better, would have done different, know what we know now. And you know, and you chalk them up and you go, right? You make the best decision you can with the information you have, but you're working to get, to answer your question, a good bearing on the situation, on all the variables around it, so that you ultimately, when you move, you know that you can move trusting the...

the players that are on the table. Because like you know, and I think you've said, any negotiations, the irony is it's really about establishing trust. You're working to build and establish credibility to go, hey, can we believe that what they say is true? Do we know that when they say Jeff's okay, that he's actually okay? Do they know that if we move forward on these terms, are they going to honor it? And...

And so that's tenuous at all times, right? But that was us trying to get our bearing the first weeks, really. Yeah.

Jeff Frazier (09:40)

Okay, yeah. Take me forward into, maybe we'll talk, unless there's anything else, if I go too fast, you let me know and say, hey, you missed something. Take me forward to where the first time you guys try to make that payment, that first 10K payment, tell me a little bit about what that was on your side of that, right? I had a limited view.

Austin (09:53)

You got it.

Jeff Frazier (10:09)

into what that even was. To me, it was a down payment, right? Because I was still negotiating for the big 100K. And I in who I call Gunny was was just on the phone saying, dude, all I got is 10k, right? And I'm, I'm like, fine. Just bring that that'll take some heat off of me and we'll we'll

the payment mechanism that the money doesn't get lost. Like that's my perspective. And then you, I'm sure have a totally different view of what went down there. You guys were having conversations that I wasn't having. But tell me about your side of that.

Austin (10:44)

Yeah.

I think when I came in, part of that was underway as far as maybe terms or whatever. We immediately began working to kind of validate the credentials of everyone. I'm going, hey, can I trust them? Who is Jeff working with? And so many of those guys turned out to be great actors too. But we were always trying to position that.

And we weren't going to do multiple payments. And we understood that was the game. We didn't want to partake in a bad faith game. Bad faith being, we're going to do one payment. If it's going to be two payments, then you're going to tell us that it's going to be two payments. But at the end of the day, if we can't trust and define terms and agreements, then what confidence should we ever have in moving forward? And so it...

Jeff Frazier (11:11)

Yeah.

Austin (11:33)

It was tough at first, you know, and you mentioned earlier, kind of this volunteer, right? Which is, it's like the last surgeon you want is the free one. You know, so I'm this, you know, free medical doctor, right? Give me, give me goodbyes.

Jeff Frazier (11:49)

Not in this case.

Austin (12:00)

which also gives some level of freedom. I remember many times reminding Aaron and Doug and Mary who, you know, we've got to talk about Mary at some point. Mary became kind of like a sister, like, you know, you guys came so close to it. But, you know, I remind them, you can fire me at any point, you know, I'm going to tell you if I think you're doing something wrong. And anytime you want to do,

Jeff Frazier (12:10)

Yeah.

Austin (12:28)

something different, you can do it. I'm in an advisory role here. If I've got the ball, I'm going to tell you, let you make the decision that we're going to execute it. But I'm there to advise and execute. It's not ultimately my decision to make, which is a tough one. And that wasn't to remove onus or responsibility. It was to respect the fact that Mary has to ultimately have that call, right? And Aaron was there to advise, too.

And so anyway, so I hated every bit of that. I hated the almost tacit positioning that this was a first payment. Disagreed with it, disagreed on the amount, disagreed on the manner in which it was kind of in play. And so kind of reluctantly moved forward with very imperfect

validation of actors going into that. And yeah, honestly, I think it's something that really set us back. You know, it was, if anybody ever in that situation, you change the offense up after the first quarter and it's a ton of reset. Cause what we're really having to do is we're having to undo all the commitments and the entire contextualization for negotiation.

Jeff Frazier (13:35)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Austin (13:44)

know, and they don't know you, you had no idea the entire team had changed, right? Like it's, it's, it's, it was way later. Listen to you. I couldn't believe how late it was, that you actually first spoke with Billy, you know, we also had a lot of communication challenges for various reasons. Gang leader swapping phones and doing all that stuff, leadership changes on their side.

Jeff Frazier (13:58)

Yeah.

Austin (14:08)

But man, that was a tremendous obstacle. I think we lost, you know, to be honest, two to three weeks that, you know, really reset the starting block, you know, on a 42 -day thing that, you know, I think we certainly could have potentially saved us time. But there's also, you know, there's a real element that our view that we had from our side that there's a standard timeline.

that these tend to operate within a parameter. And so, you know, right when I came in, I wanted to set realistic expectations for everyone, both in terms of what the market was at, what we thought was reasonable and responsible, and what the timing would look like, and what your likelihood or probability of death would be, which is weird to think about, but is very real.

Jeff Frazier (14:58)

Hmm.

Austin (15:03)

you know, in certain gangs, it's higher than others. So there was an element on the timeframe stamp, a timeframe view where you were going to have to, you're going to, you were in the oven. You were going to have to bake. like there was no situation where, you are going to get out in 14 days, unfortunately. And so, that I think was difficult for everyone, but I think ended up being extremely important on our end.

for everyone to go, hey, it feels really long. And us going, well, this is actually about right. It's about what we thought. But anyway, is that helpful?

Jeff Frazier (15:39)

Yeah, of course, of course. so, you know, that I was told that that first 10 K payment, you, you guys brought it in and they declined it. Do I understand that? Correct. Correct.

Austin (15:51)

All They sent it back. Which is kind of a myth to everybody. You know, sometimes you get a knuckleball and we just said, all right, what do we not know? You know, and it really, we ultimately interpreted it as a signal that

they really took a hundred thousand dollar commitment seriously. And so from that point on, I knew I had to discredit you. I was like, man, I'm like, I don't care about the gang. I care about Jeff. Like we have to sideline Jeff. So everything became about regaining control and getting the microphone back, which was really hard. And, and,

Jeff Frazier (16:19)

Yeah.

Austin (16:36)

and you are a worthwhile adversary. You're a force.

Jeff Frazier (16:48)

It's okay to say that I'm obnoxious. That's totally fine.

Austin (16:52)

It wasn't a knock. It was, what else should you be doing in the absence of information? You know, and we really failed to communicate and get messaging to you. You know, and we thought we were making attempts, but sometimes things are misinterpreted or not communicated or text messages don't go through right, or they're not.

Like calls don't go through, so there's a lot that contributes to that. But at the end of the day, we really failed to get that messaging to you so that you would have confidence and trust in that. And that's certainly something I'd do different starting over.

Jeff Frazier (17:25)

I mean, how could you ever know that? I mean, you guys presumed that I was being coerced or under duress or, you know, you guys were trying to speak in code the whole time and it's just, it's an impossible situation. There's, I don't know how you would have gone about it differently. You would have had to somehow know that I was telling the truth when I said I'm, you can speak freely. And I don't know how you would have known that. And I've listened to the recordings.

Austin (17:41)

That's right.

Jeff Frazier (17:53)

You know, after the fact, and if I put myself in your shoes, I don't know that I would have believed me either. Right. It just, what does duress sound like? Right. What does coerced conversations like? Of course you could see those things both ways. Right. You guys are, everybody's in an impossible situation. okay. Let's fast forward to a day 27, 28. So negotiations start to ramp up and get real.

Austin (18:12)

Right.

Jeff Frazier (18:22)

Tell me about why you guys felt confident kind of moving forward and making an accord and tell me maybe your side, you know, as you saw.

Austin (18:31)

Man, that one was frustrating.

you know, you referenced it, I think it's a good starting place, where if the gangs, when their strategy is to get this, work this multi -payment system, then, you know, they understand at a point that the more they do that, the less trust people have in, you know, in their agreements or court. And then we saw there, there became this kind of like subtle pivot that gangs

many were making, which was, hey, we're going to blame it on a courier or an alternative gang who stole it in route. The likelihood of that happening while gangs are running the city and while there are checkpoints and everything else, we felt like the likelihood of that is extremely low. So, we do often view couriers as they're the people in the middle, they're in the gray.

So we have questionable trust there at any point, at all points, but sort of it being like that became a ruse to basically omit a payment and to discredit it, at which point we rejected. And we had made them aware of that prior to that negotiation and accord and how we would view it. So we wanted to signpost and anchor.

at every point. And we also wanted to make it clear to them, which I think this is really difficult for Aaron and Mary and Bolden Points, but we had to make it really clear that we were very fine with you sitting there and them continuing to feed you because your life was worth nothing if you weren't alive. And we were prepared to...

to walk in the absence of trust and working poor with them. So that was a major shut back and we wanted to communicate it as such to them. And they violated trust, they're gonna have to earn it back with us. And we're not interested in resetting the negotiation. So payment is payment. If they got stolen in route, then it's their freaking job to go find it. And so it sounds like they're too weak a leader to have too little control and they need to maybe go get a big boy gang member to figure out how to control transportation.

And so we got pretty aggressive, man. But it's just, we know the game, right, and the play. And we wanted to be clear that we didn't have the intention of playing it with them. So yeah, that effectively for you, that adds time. And that just sucked. But we felt like it was really important for them knowing who we were and how we were going to operate with them. So that one sucked.

Jeff Frazier (21:06)

Do you remember the, when Bois -Colais kind of got going and, you know, your perspective of that from the outside looking in, right? I know a lot about Bois -Colais now after I got out, but I only knew my version of it, right? That I was seeing with my own eyes. I can only imagine what you guys were speculating from the word you were getting.

Austin (21:26)

Yeah. Man, that was a... I mean, short of it was that it was a variable that we couldn't control that contributed negatively to your timeline, right? It was a very real threat and distraction for the gangs and a real risk for them. You know, so... You know, we love that...

There was a movement against the gangs to hopefully prevent them from operating so freely and with such impunity. It's really a larger indication and indictment on the governance structure and law enforcement capabilities of Haiti and of the international community But, yeah, I mean, it had a huge impact on us.

And it kind of was a stalling function for both sides. So I think we, you know, it's like watching like on the nature channel, like you see two bulls steering off and then like another predator comes in and it's like, wow, how's this going to play out? And everybody just kind of like stops. It's kind of how it felt. Kind of how it felt. You know, and of course we were, you know, coordinating closely with law enforcement and country.

Jeff Frazier (22:31)

Yeah.

Austin (22:40)

I'm unaware of who they were, because they got aggressive on them and were making, taking measures to try to get offensive as well with some of the gangs during that time. And so we were like, man, we're tracking that brand to see like maybe we catch a break here in a few ways. And I think everybody kind of had to let the dust settle on that before we could pick up some things. But.

Jeff Frazier (22:58)

Yeah.

Austin (23:06)

Yeah, it was a real variable, a real threat, and we wanted to be opportunistic, but obviously it didn't directly impact us much further than that.

Jeff Frazier (23:16)

Awesome. Let's go backwards a little bit. Can you talk to me about your first impressions of Mary and the ramping her up, getting her ready, how she was responding, how you were working together, that kind of thing.

Austin (23:34)

together.

man, yeah. So, I'm pretty sure I spoke with Doug or Erin first before getting connected to Mary, which is great, right? That they were shielding and vetting people prior to bringing them into her, which, man, I think they served Mary so well and so faithfully through it. First connection.

I don't remember exactly, and I don't have my notes in front of me from the conversation, but I knew you had somebody who was a person of faith. I knew you had this, she came across, obviously comes across so genuine, right? She's so authentic in every way. And so you're not sitting there, when you're talking to Mary, you're not really wondering if there's something else that she's thinking. If there's another narrative that's playing.

She was such a good faith, which of course she's operating good faith for you. But I feel like she had, she was very discerning, but also I think we were able to establish trust quickly. Where she wanted, she's a great question asker too, so I think she wanted our opinion as well as our observations and recommendations.

And I think she did a really good job, oftentimes, of kind of poking behind that recommendation to go, hey, what are the concerns or the variables that shape this? Where she wanted to know the why, and she obviously was doing everything in her interest for you. And she was doing it in a manner that was, I think, so responsible for the sake of like, she was able...

I told her my usual she needs to write a book about this whole thing too because her ability to go from, and I'm my husband's kidnap, what does this mean? To really being, she was able to live in it, but be on top of it to also go, what are the, what's the larger context and effects and impact of all of this? Not just on the family, but on Haiti, on the other missionaries who were there.

on the kidnapping environment at large, on gangs, on larger security risk, on even the national context of US -Haitian relations and all that stuff. So she's such a quick study. I think it was shrewd and assessing who she could trust and who she couldn't. Multiple times, I just found her to be so discerning with people. She's sharing a conversation or something with me.

Jeff Frazier (26:00)

Hmm.

Austin (26:06)

And I'd ask one question, she'd be like, Austin, you don't trust these people, do you? Here's what I'm actually thinking. I'm like, my gosh, I think you're right on. I think that person's a bad actor. You really want to know what I think. I wouldn't work with him. And she was remarkably steady, I think is the last thing I'd say through it, which wasn't this faux strength, right? It wasn't put on. I think that was her, you know, I mean, her and

Aaron and I, we prayed together multiple times. Like my background's a ministry guy, right? He's a missionary in country. And so I think we had what I'd call value alignment and a unified faith that we were gonna trust God through a really difficult situation and we're gonna make him, you know, flawed decisions with inadequate information and move forward, trust that God will be good. And so anyway,

Faithful, resilient, crazy discerning, and yeah, like her and Aaron were awesome to work with and she's a pretty remarkable person. Yeah.

Jeff Frazier (27:09)

Amen. Amen to all those things. I remember her sharing with me that there was a progression for her from where in the beginning, she was kind of deferring to you and your team, meaning, what do you think? What do you think? What should we do? Right. Tell me what to do. Of course she's coming in with a hundred percent ignorance, right. And naivete to kidnapping resolution efforts.

Austin (27:29)

Mm.

Right.

Jeff Frazier (27:38)

And she just wants the experts to be in charge, right? And she'll sign on the dotted line and you guys handle it, right? she told me about when she realized how unfair that was for you guys to be making mortal decisions on my behalf and for her to be outsourcing that level of responsibility.

and, and began to take it on herself and start asking those discerning questions so that she could step up to that plate and make those decisions on her own behalf and therefore absolving you of the responsibility to do so. And I was, I just was dumbfounded when she told me about that progression. It's like, wow.

Austin (27:59)

Hmm.

What a transformation, right? I mean, that's a pill right there, right? And the strength and backbone to see that, acknowledge it, and to step up to the plate to be responsible for it, right? Meanwhile, she's, you know, I'm sure running kids around to school, you know, multiple times we get a call and she texts me back, I got kids in the car or we're running to practice, right? Because she's trying to keep all the plates running.

Jeff Frazier (28:23)

them. Yeah.

Yeah.

Austin (28:48)

you know, as you know. Like that, you get comfortable with like a, there's this level of duplicity almost that, you know, it can feel manipul - it's not manipulous for the protection of everyone and the mission. That's a hard place to live and it was a long place for everyone to live, right? Her more than anyone on your case. So, yeah.

Jeff Frazier (28:58)

Sure.

Yeah.

Austin (29:11)

And really remarkable and absolutely correct on that kind of transformation for sure.

Jeff Frazier (29:16)

Yeah. Okay. So you make the ransom payment, the first ransom payment that's actually received that's day 28. Then that night, I talk on the phone with Billy. He's like, Hey, you know, they, we paid, they agreed to give you up and they didn't. And they're demanding the hundred K again and

tell me about the night of day 28. So that's following the failed ransom attempt. So you guys deliver the money, the gang gets the money, and they won't give me up. And I remember I get on the phone with Billy and Billy explains that to me. Again, I'd already received it from bad cop. He'd already yelled it in my face. But we talked about it again. And I said, Yeah, no, I get it.

Austin (29:46)

you guys.

Jeff Frazier (30:05)

I didn't tell him I was about to escape, but I had already decided. Yeah, don't worry. I'm going out the window. I'll see you in a little bit. I hope. But yeah, you guys don't know any of that. So tell me, tell me what's happening on your end. You know, I'm sure you're not particularly surprised, but you know what, what else is going through your head?

Austin (30:23)

Yeah.

That's right. And they're running their play on payment and treating it like the first of many. And so we are resetting once again. And so we felt like we kept running. It had to have felt so frustrating for Aaron and Mary. I'm going, Mary, we've got to reset again.

Jeff Frazier (30:31)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Austin (30:45)

You know, like we're running the same talking points in the same communication play again because we've got to re -establish trust and rules and what the playing field looks like. And so, yeah, I forgot how many turnovers we actually had with respect to who the decision maker was. Because that's the other side is sometimes you get a different negotiator, but you got the same decision maker.

And so there's varying levels of autonomy that a given negotiator has. That's true on both sides, right? But, you know, it was interesting on us discerning, we're trying to get beneath that and behind it, going who actually is making the decision? Did they just do a change out on the front office guys? It's the same dude calling the shots. And so

Jeff Frazier (31:36)

I

Austin (31:36)

We feel like we're back at square one. And again, just trying to reset with him on it.

Jeff Frazier (31:41)

Yeah. So that's going to take the time that it's going to take. I remember I don't hear from you guys till I think day 38.

Austin (31:56)

Yep.

Jeff Frazier (31:58)

It's a ways, And I remember Billy telling me, Hey, we've been trying to talk to you. We've been trying to call it because I was mad. And so I'm in solitary at that point, right? Because everybody else is gone. Right. And, and I'm in solitary and, and I, I forget what day. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's 30. I talking to them to Billy. I'm like, dude, like you got to call me, right? You got to talk to me.

You don't have to negotiate with those guys, but I gotta talk to somebody. Be my friend. Will you be my friend, Billy? Anyway, do you remember on what's happening? Like, was it really eight days between your efforts to reach out to those guys? Or tell me what was happening on your side.

Austin (32:31)

I'm sorry.

Well, no, no.

So when an accord is broken, there's this process of how do you repair? Because actually, it's in both parties' interest to repair it and to be talking. And we wanted to communicate, hey, your side may change, the situation hasn't changed. The narrative is still the same.

Payments that have been made or attempts to do them or agreements that have been made need to be honored or they need to be overtly addressed and reframed. And so we're, it's kind of like somebody bringing in a new negotiator just thinking, hey, we get to mash reset. And our goal is going to, no, you get it. We're going to take that reset button off the table. No, you don't. Here's the terms. Here's expectations. And sometimes those are agreed to and sometimes they're one side saying,

Jeff Frazier (33:25)

Yeah.

Austin (33:35)

We will not move on it and we won't communicate further with you unless you honor and respect it. And so, you know, that was important. I think it's the reason that, you know, ultimately we were able to do a live exchange for you. I think that speaks to a level of trust and credibility that we were able to, you know, build mutually if that's possible to say with, you know, with the final actors on their side. But we wanted to communicate a lot of...

Frustration a lot of broken trust a lot a lot of loss of credibility You know, we were we were also, you know We're also always working multiple plays, right? I mean there's there's options other ways to get you out and and we were gonna You know, we're we're gonna work every play And always do the one that seems in your best interest and so

Anyway, we were pursuing that, but we were always reaching out. Sometimes if they didn't agree to acknowledging certain facts, then we'd say, okay, well, we'll talk tomorrow. And we'd get off and let them know. Until you address the following things, we'd say, keep feeding Jeff. Better be alive. If he's not alive, you don't get anything.

And so, anyway, we were, we were willing to be aggressive in that. And, you know, and, and Mary was, she was committed to us being consistent and anchoring on that. despite the, you know, there's a short term cost to that, right? The short term cost is, what if they, what if they're going to do it this time? Right? What if they're really, we can trust them. What if this is a new guy? Right. And.

And now we've got to take the long term, we're going to maintain a long term mindset of here's what we agreed to, we have to establish trust in terms and until we do so and until we see validation of that along the path to that exchange or outcome, then we walk. And so it's a step deal. And yeah, we were trying to reset that for eight days and...

Jeff Frazier (35:50)

So, day 38, I talked to Billy, for the first time and I, I tell them, Hey dude, I, I think they're ready to deal, right? Everybody else has gone, which is probably not news to you at that point, but, cause I think you had been debriefing people as they were being released. but you, you know, I'm by myself, I'm trying to sell the idea like, Hey dude, it really feels like they're ready to get rid of me because they've been.

getting rid of every run one. and Billy's not having it. He's like, dude, we're, we're going to work non -monetary solutions right now and you just sit tight and don't worry. And I ask him for details and he stonewalls me. It's like, yeah, and I'm not going to tell you anything, Goober. and, somehow the gang blinks, right? Cause I give the phone back to, I think,

Austin (36:36)

I think so.

Jeff Frazier (36:37)

And he walks away. And then the next day, day 39, I talked to Billy and Billy's like, Hey, I think we got an accord. It's going to be a live exchange. Sit tight. Right. Can you tell me about that? Or do you remember anything about that kind of moment when they blink, so to speak, or at least it seems like that on my side.

Austin (36:55)

Yeah, remember vividly, which I just pulled up my notes from this window. and some else was really important. that was a variable here is we, we came to the conclusion, that not only did you have a, a hands off director, the gen like the general was read in and he'd given directions. but.

absolutely believe that there was theft within their ranks. And so payments that may or may not have been made, different messaging and whatever was being passed on to the general. And so you have distrust within their own ranks because we knew what was getting paid for other people. We attract to their communication, handlers,

couriers were, all of that. And obviously, things were intensifying leading up to that with some of the treatment of people, of you guys inside. But that was a really difficult variable to navigate where oftentimes we're trying to penetrate through the lead negotiator to get to the general, which we also had other ways of getting to him because of

of our relationships and history and country. We're actually back -channeling messaging directly to them because we also, you know, we wanted them to know, you have low -level guys who are stealing from you, which is a pretty interesting thing to be doing. So I guess no honor amongst thieves, but that one added a lot of complexity to it. But when we were obviously excited on

Jeff Frazier (38:22)

Yeah.

Austin (38:37)

the agreement on a live exchange and That would get agreed to and then they would renege it they would get agreed to and then we man that happened for You know several several days leading up to the actual exchange where They would say no you're gonna come to us

And then they would try to renege thinking that we would come in there and we're going, heck no, there's zero chance we're coming into the house or up to that location where you were and putting more risk. And that was something Mary was firm on. We would get hopeful and then they would try to change it last minute and we'd walk.

And so we were really adamant about a live exchange, really adamant about, no, the amount is the amount. We're not moving forward past it. And so they kind of, they tried to do the bait and switch several times, which is what caused that to end up being a week when it could have been, you know, that first day around day 38, 39. Yeah.

Jeff Frazier (39:40)

Okay, tell me about day 43, right? You finally get an accord. How did you make that final accord that ended up working?

Austin (39:50)

We said the same thing that we'd said for seven days and they finally did it.

It was that simple. We were going to do exactly what we said we were going to do. But until you guys are going to hold up your end, we're not going to change it or adjust it. We've made an agreement. They would go, no, you know, we're going to change it. We said, no, we made an agreement. If you're not going to do the agreement, then call us tomorrow. And that just kept happening, right? And so on day 43, they finally had the motivation to just, you know, do what you say you're going to do. It's not that complicated, but...

Like you said many times, these are boys and they're animals and they're just freaking terrible people and they're coming back. You never know what's the, wish I knew the toxicity level of a guy when we were negotiating with him at a given point, right? How late was he up the night before? What's he still on? Who's he raped in the meantime? That kind of stuff. And they finally have...

the motivation, which is probably driven by either their boss or some element of fear, but something causes them to actually do what they said they're gonna do. And so when it did, we said, okay, here's the next step. And they walked it out. And of course, that happens, right? You're just on live communication cycles every five minutes, right? And there's so many.

potential points of failure and so many tools for, you know, we're leveraging everything we can on validation, right? Because it's not just only people in the field aren't that person, right? There's other assets that we have who we're bouncing stuff off of or getting, you know, visuals on and pressure checking everything with. So anyway, it's just a communication madhouse. But yeah.

Jeff Frazier (41:17)

of.

Austin (41:41)

The team on the ground just absolutely crushed it in terms of doing an exchange that was secure with protections around it for you and for everyone else. And of course we get a curve ball because the courier decides he's going to steal a couple hundred bucks. So all of us are about to lose our minds on that one. We're going, you've got it.

Jeff Frazier (42:04)

Yeah.

So I'll tell the audience a little bit about that. So you may, some of you who've listened to this, the previous episodes may know that from my perspective, there was maybe 120 bucks missing in Haitian Coup. And what got related to my team was there was $2 ,000 worth that was missing, right? Give or take. And.

Austin (42:09)

You beat me.

Jeff Frazier (42:35)

So what you learn from that is the courier was taking a piece of the action, right? And, and clearly that was already set up between chef to bad cop and the courier, right? So couriers getting paid, he's double dipping, right? Cause he's getting paid by my team above the table. And then he figured out this ruse to get some more, out of the deal. And clearly that.

Austin (42:49)

Mm -hmm.

That's right.

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, that was a...

Jeff Frazier (43:04)

Anybody ever call that guy and say, hey, what the heck? Like, we know you stole a bunch of money from us.

Austin (43:10)

yeah, so there's certain guys that don't get used again and there are guys that do that stuff. But yeah, we don't work with people.

Jeff Frazier (43:18)

Anyway, that was a scary moment. So then we get that worked out, you send him back in with the extra cash. You remember what you heard after that?

Austin (43:27)

We knew the time frame. We have checkpoints for him coming in. We're communicating with him directly, but we're also tracking him. And then we get the call that the exchange is live. Getting the call that you're in the car and...

Hearing your voice and getting a picture of you and pulling up to the Marriott like that was a good moment for us. That was a sweet moment for us. You know, at the same time you're immediately transitioning to, hey, is everybody going to do what they said they're going to do here? You know, you're, I think we, I appreciate it so much. Like you get there, but you know, nightmare's not over.

Right? And the temptation is to, you know, you think it's over, but there's not a, there's the illusion always of a finish line with this stuff. You get home and we'd set up Mary and Erin, really talked to Erin a lot about this during everything and Mary where, man, just like the re -engagement, it's like after a deployment or something where it's a tough deal.

You know, you're not going to talk to anybody that can identify with it. And at the same time, you're jumping back in. But I remember thinking of you at the hotel going, man, he's not going to trust anybody. And I wouldn't if I were him, right? We hated some of the logistics around that. And so we were just really adamant about who was there and who was going to be present for you and who was responsible. And then...

Of course, we just don't trust anything. So we're just comp checking everything the whole time. But...

Jeff Frazier (45:13)

remember, I remember checking everyone's ID. Anyone who knew what room I was going to be, I wanted to see their ID. Anybody who's walking behind me, I wanted to see their ID, right? You know, if it wasn't FBI, then I wanted them somewhere else, right? Or somebody that I knew that Dave guy, I don't even know if that's his real name. I was okay with him being around because he got me out, right?

Austin (45:32)

Yeah.

Jeff Frazier (45:41)

And then I remember having this feeling like I just wanted to fight everyone. It wasn't that I wanted to, it was just that my body was ready to. So let's see that idea. And if this doesn't go well, we are in trouble. Which is of course an irrationalization. Anyway, yeah.

Austin (45:54)

Mm -hmm.

Thank you.

it's perfectly rational. I mean, you've been, you know, you're actually demonstrating and having to maintain a position of posture of restraint, you know, your entire captivity and you're a big dude. You know, I know you lost some pounds in there, but there's not a...

Jeff Frazier (46:23)

shrinking fast.

Austin (46:28)

101, I bet on you 100 out of 100 times in that environment, particularly in this situation. But it's just, man, I can only imagine the frustration that's pent up and that. I mean, we're super concerned about that for you and trying to maintain like, hey, this is the finish line. We got to support you through it and make sure you're on an airplane.

Jeff Frazier (46:32)

No, it's never that. It's never that.

Austin (46:56)

and back to the States. But in that, I've got two things that are kind of burned into my mind. The picture you like in the back of the ambulance there and checking on you. And then the one of you and Mary in the car outside of Miami airport. That was a big one. But yeah, man.

Jeff Frazier (47:15)

Well, dude, Austin, yet again, thank you for everything. That'll never be enough, but I am certainly grateful that I've gotten a great friend and colleague out of it, because it's been a joy to collaborate with you and trying to help out in Haiti ever since. And I see that being a lifelong partnership. So I'm grateful for that. And of course, thank you. Can you hear me now?

Austin (47:36)

Man. that lose you.

I got you back. Man, honor to call you a friend. We're just a volunteer, right? So you got the free surgeon. We're just glad you're here, man. It's an important story. I appreciate you having the courage to tell it. It's amazing how quick the criticism can come. I'm sure that...

that you'll never talk about on here, that people are gonna bring to you an accusation, a motive or something else, and just as a character witness to you and marrying the kind of people you are, the last thing you want is more unwelcomed, you know, publicity. What you're trying to do is make sure that a story's told about a country that the world's forgotten about and it's consistently overlooked.

And it's a real problem. It's a real problem to be able to see it in the context of US interest and national security. It's a massive problem to overlook that, you know, the fact that you've got over 500 ,000 kids who haven't been to school in five years. You've got a generation that's being lost, you know, and the number of murders, rape and kidnappings are understated to a factor, you know, probably 20 times is our guess. It's not okay, you know, because, you know,

You have a platform because you're an American citizen and capable and competent to deliver in. And these are going on daily with Haitians for what would seem like, you know, varying significant amounts to, you know, Americans here. But in the fear and the oppression that people lived in in that country, it's not a new thing. This is a six -year failed state thing. It's not okay. And now we're...

We're heartbroken. We sit here to do this today. And last night, you know, three Americans are murdered, you know, by, by gangs, you know, right in Port -au -Prince. And, and we're just, man, we're just, you know, we're praying and what's it going to take for, for people of integrity and character to care, to apply pressure to their representatives. you know,

Jeff Frazier (49:35)

Yeah, just a few miles from the airport.

Austin (49:51)

Haitians as well as Americans, right? We all have officials who are accountable and work for the people and for the US government to support the security objectives of that country to put an end to this. It's got to happen. So thanks for raising your voice on it, man. It means a ton. And anything that we can do to help support Haiti and bring some peace, we want to see it. So appreciate your courage.

Jeff Frazier (50:17)

Thanks Austin. I appreciate that. I'm excited to get to the next phase of this podcast where we really start digging deep and educating the audience, the viewers on what it's going to take to move things forward in Haiti. Hopefully you'll come back and be part of that as we try to get a massive amount of Americans and I should say the international community educated on what's next for Haiti and what needs to be next.

Austin (50:45)

I love it. I love it. Don't stop in any time. You know that. Always behind you, Jeff. Thanks, brother.

Jeff Frazier (50:49)

Thanks buddy, appreciate you taking the time. You're the man. Say hi to the family for me and thank them for allowing you to take time away yet again for Jeff.

Austin (51:00)

You do the same to yours, brother. I'll see you, Jeff.

Jeff Frazier (51:02)

Alright dude, you're the man. Love you brother. We'll see ya.